Betrayal Trauma And The Path To Healing with Dr. Debbie Silber

Betrayal trauma hits differently than other losses because it shatters trust, identity, and safety all at once. We break down post-betrayal syndrome and the five predictable stages that move you from survival and triggers to real healing and a new worldview. 

• why betrayal feels different than grief, illness, and other trauma 
• what post-betrayal syndrome looks like across physical, mental, and emotional symptoms 
• the key stats that explain hypervigilance, exhaustion, triggers, and loss of trust 
• why time and a new relationship do not automatically heal betrayal 
• the five stages of post-betrayal transformation and what changes at each stage 
• how people get stuck in survival mode through stories, numbing, and “wrong time” tools 
• what it means to outgrow people and build a new normal 
• the final reframe that reduces shame and self-blame 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello there and welcome back to the next episode of Overcome Yourself the Podcast. As you know, my name is Nicole, and I'm so excited to be here today with Dr. Debbie. And Dr.

Welcome And What Betrayal Trauma Is

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Debbie is gonna talk to us about trauma and how it's still stuck inside of us, and we are holding on to that. I'm butchering it. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna let her take it away and let her introduce herself. Um, and please take us on this amazing journey because this is such an important part of overcoming yourself. Um, actually, no, not trauma, betrayal more specifically, the trauma of betrayal. Um, and so yes, please take it away, Dr. Debbie, and let us know who you are and who you help.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation. You know, you said it, trauma is is huge, and betrayal is a very different type of trauma that needs a very different way to heal. And I only know that because I experienced it myself and I did a PhD study on it. So um, here I was, four kids, six dogs at Thriving Business, and my betrayal rocked me to my core. And usually I go to books or courses or anything to help me heal, and there really wasn't anything. And this was so big that I decided I needed to study it so big. So I found myself enrolling in a PhD program. I hadn't been in school in 30 years. Um, but I wanted to understand how the mind works and more importantly, how I can heal. Like I had to get it together for my kids, for my clients. And while I was there, I did a study. I studied betrayal. That was it. I just I wanted to find a way through this. And I remember thinking, I have no idea if and how I can heal from this, but if I can, I'm taking everybody with me. And that study led to three discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Tell us about it. You're giving TEDx talks, you're helping people with a proven, repeatable system. So please talk to us about this. Like, what betrayal are we talking about? And how do we overcome that?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Yeah. So betrayal, you know, when I say betrayal, I mean it's that shock to the body, to the mind, to the heart. And the more we trust someone, the deeper the betrayal. So a child who's totally dependent on their parent and the parent does

Why Betrayal Feels Different

SPEAKER_01 2:16

something awful, that's gonna have a different impact than let's say your best friend sharing your secret. Still betrayal is a different level of cleanup. But uh, but when the the discovery showed up, it was just a game changer for how we experience it and how more importantly, how we can heal. So the first one, first discovery was I had a feeling betrayal was a different type of trauma. I'd been through death of loved ones, I'd been through disease. And I was like, betrayal feels different. I didn't want to assume it was the same for everybody else. So I asked him, if you've been through other traumas, does betrayal feel different for you? Unanimously, every single person said, it's so different than other traumas. And here's why. And I'm not minimizing any trauma, they all stink. I'm just saying it's different. And it's different because when you lose someone you love, for example, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the lost life will never be the same. But you don't go back and question that relationship, right? You don't lose your ability to trust, you don't question your sanity with betrayal, you do, because not only has your life, you know, completely been shattered, the self, rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust, they're all they're all shattered and need to be rebuilt. So when you rebuild your life and yourself, you're in a new space, and that's called post-betrayal transformation or uh PBT. And that was so that was the first discovery. Want me to share the second? Yes, please. Okay. So the second discovery was that there's actually a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post-betrayal syndrome. We've had over 100,000 people take our post-betrayal

Post-Betrayal Syndrome Explained

SPEAKER_01 3:55

syndrome assessment to see to what extent they're struggling. A few things about that. The first thing is we've all been taught time heals all wounds, right? I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. There's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? And people write things like, My betrayal happened 35 years ago and I will never trust again. My betrayal happened 15 years ago, feels like it happened yesterday. So we know we can't count on time. We can't count on a new relationship to heal it. Healing needs to be deliberate and intentional. And um, you know, here's one like one story about uh different symptoms. 45% of everyone betrayed has a gut issue. It could be anything. Crohn's IBS, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, you name it. We had a woman in our program, she was in her mid-80s, and she had a 70 plus year digestive issue. And it was from a family betrayal. She was adopted, they didn't tell her that kind of thing. 70 plus years dealing and managing this digestive issue. All the doctors, all the pills, all the protocols. Two weeks in our program, she healed from a 70 plus year gut issue. That's what happens when you deal with the actual root cause, which was the betrayal, and stop hacking away at the symptoms. So happy to share the stats or happy to move on to the third discovery. You tell me.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

You let me know. You're the expert here, and this this is all amazing. So I'm down to hear everything.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, okay. So I'm happy to share some stats. Um, you know, as far as these stats go, it's men, women, just about every country is represented. As much as I'm gonna share the stats, hear the

The Surprising Symptom Statistics

SPEAKER_01 5:34

uh the symptoms, hear these numbers. Ready? Out of 100,000 plus people, 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. So think about how a loss of personal power is gonna impact how you show up, what you do, right? What you don't do. 80% are hypervigilant. You're just walking around in the state of waiting for the next shoe to drop. 94% deal with painful triggers. If you've ever had a trigger, they take you down. The most common uh physical symptoms: 71% have low energy, 63% have extreme fatigue. You sleep all night, you wake up, you're exhausted. Right. Uh 47% have weight changes in the beginning. You know, maybe you can hold food down. Later on, you're emotionally eating, using food for comfort. So, so common. Uh, some of the most common mental symptoms. Uh, 78% are overwhelmed, 62% can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate. Let's say you have a gut issue, you're exhausted, you still have to work, right? You still have to raise your kids, take care of your elderly parents, whatever you have going on. That's not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry.

unknown 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

And it's common to bounce back and forth between those two all day long, which is exhausting. Um, oh, so many more. This one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. 84%. So if you can't trust, what's that gonna do, you know, with your work, with your relationships, right? Um 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being heard again. That means they put the big wall up, right? They keep the the bad ones out, but they're keeping out the good ones too. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how. Now, here's what's so crazy. You didn't hear me say 20%, 30%, right? These numbers are super high. They're also not necessarily representing a recent betrayal. These numbers could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid. They could be from the partner who broke your heart in high school. So think about this. That person may not know, care, remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are, decades later, with these symptoms because it was left unhealed. The good news is you can heal from all of it. That was the third discovery. Any questions about that?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

I was gonna ask you, what's the third discovery? Because I want to know now that we know what it is, how do we deal with it? So that's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah. So the third discovery was for me, this was the most exciting. And what we learned was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime for many, if we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean those symptoms I just shared, to that completely

Five Stages Of Betrayal Healing

SPEAKER_01 8:25

rebuilt place called post-betrayal transformation, we will move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing's entirely predictable. So when the five stages showed up, I'm like, there's only so many people I could get these five stages out to. And so I created our certification program now. I'm blessed to say it's the number one betrayal recovery certification for coaches. And it's because for every coach or practitioner that knows these five stages, they can predictably move their client through physically, mentally, and emotionally from that shattered space to this completely whole healed space. That's beautiful. So it's very exciting. So you tell me, I could share the stages, we could talk more about it. It's your show.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

What do you want? Yes, I love I'd love to know the stages because I'd love people to have an idea of what it looks like on the other side of that. Like, what does it look like to go through?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah. Okay. So when you're as as I share the stages, everyone will know exactly where they are. Um, I'll give you like a really brief overview. Like I said, this is all we do in our certification program. Real brief overview here. I have it written in trust again. So you'll see that book there. They're in there, all my posts videos, everything. But okay, stage one, this is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing, right? And kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. If a table only has two legs, it's easy for that table to topple over. That's us. Stage two, shock, trauma, D-Day, discovery day. This is the scariest out of all of the stages. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, the worldview. So right here, you got the news, right? Right here, you it's like the person just took a mask off. You're like, what? And what happens is it ignites the stress response. You are now headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. The mind is completely overwhelmed. You cannot understand what just happened. And your worldview is shattered. That's your mental model, the rules that govern you that prevent chaos. Trust this person, don't go there, you know. And in one earth-shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've been hanging on to no longer, the bottom has bottomed out and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. It's terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive, right?

Stage Three Traps That Keep You Stuck

SPEAKER_01 11:12

That's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me, get out of my way. How do I survive this? Who can I trust? Here's the trap, though. This is the stage most people get stuck in. Um, and here's why. Because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we plant roots here. We're not supposed to, but we do. And four things start to happen. We start getting all those small self-benefits, secondary gains. We get to be right. We have our story, you know, and we love our story. We get sympathy from everyone we tell our story to. And on some level, we don't know we'll get much else, so we take it. So we plant deeper roots. And now the mind starts doing things like, well, maybe it's maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not good enough. I'm not this, I'm not that. So we plant deeper roots. And now, because these are the thoughts we're thinking, this is the energy we start putting out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now we start attracting people and circumstances and even new relationships to confirm, yep, this is where you belong, right? And here's where we'll join a lame support group and we found our people. And we will actually sabotage our healing because we found our people. Here's where we go to therapy, well-meaning, well-intentioned therapist. But if they're not highly skilled in betrayal, you're gonna feel heard, you'll feel validated, you're feeling you'll feel understood. You're not an inch closer to stage four. You're actually solidifying your spot in stage three, right? Here's where we're afraid to outgrow our betrayer. So we actually sabotage our healing because we don't know what's waiting for us up here, right? It gets worse, but I'll get chatter. Because it feels so bad, but we we don't know what else to do, right here. We start numbing, avoiding distracting. So we use food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, whatever, you know, to numb avoid distract. We do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit, a year, 10 years, 20 years. You know, I could see someone 20 years later and say, that emotional eating you're doing, or that drinking. Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? They look at me like I'm crazy. It happened 20 years ago. All they did was lock themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's where most people live. That's where you have repeat betrayals. That's where you're medicating and suppressing symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, and you're living this life of just stuckness. And this is where most people land. It's no one's fault. But they don't know there's a stage four and stage five. So transformation doesn't even begin until stage four. But if you're willing, willingness is a big word right here to let go of your story, all it gives you, uh grieve more in the lost bunch of things you need to do. You move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Even in that decision, you're turning

Stage Four Letting Go And New Normal

SPEAKER_01 14:17

down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage that was going on in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, right? If you ever move to a new house, office, condo, whatever, all your stuff's not there, it's not cozy yet, but it's like, yeah, this sort of hopeful excitement feels like that. But think about it. If you were to move, you don't take everything with you. Right? You don't take the things that don't represent who you're now ready to become in this new stage. And what I found was there's this one spot as people leave stage three and enter into stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, they're not coming with you. The that lame support group, you're done. That therapist who's just keeping you stuck, you're done. The betrayer who's not changing, you're done. And people ask me all the time, you know, Dr. Dibby, is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation. And if these people around you don't rise, you've outgrown them. So it's a very personal, not necessarily a lonely time, very personal time. Anyway, when you've settled into this space, you made it cozy, you made it kind of mentally home, you move into the fifth most beautiful stage. And this is healing, rebirth, and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We we didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now we do. The

Stage Five Rebirth Boundaries And Trust

SPEAKER_01 15:33

mind is healing, making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries, and we have a whole new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now. And the four legs of that table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

That is beautiful. And I wrote something like that in my book, as a matter of fact. And it's talking about letting some people go, like you're gonna have to let some people go. Um, like if you're climbing up a mountain, you can't be dragging a bunch of people that don't want to go up the mountain with you. Leave them there. And if it's, you know, someone important, you could come back. If it's like a one-year-old, you're not gonna like leave them there. If it's someone that can't climb physically, right? And this analogy, you're not gonna just leave them there. You can come back once you've got a house up at the top with a good view, right? But you've got to climb up there and get everything established. And so um, I totally understand what you mean by that. And um, I remember being in a stage where I was like, I have to change my vibrations. And and in and it was in the in the input, right? In the things that that like you were talking about, the books and the mentors and the hanging out with new people, but all of that starts with the internal, right? Because if you don't have the bandwidth for going out to dinner and sitting in a restaurant, you know, like it's gonna be hard to maintain relationships. If you don't have the bandwidth, like if you've got cortisol pumping all through your veins every single day because you're stressed out, and so your body's responding, cortisol, cortisol, adrenaline, let's go, let's go. How are you gonna have the energy to work out at the end of the day? How are you gonna have the energy to get up at six in the morning, like all the gurus say, when you didn't even fall asleep until two? Like it doesn't make sense. And so really getting down to the root of the problem instead of focusing on the symptoms is really what I see in in your framework. And I think it makes a lot of sense. And um, I love it. I love it. And I love, you know, when I see something in my book that I wrote, I was like, yes, I'm on the right track. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think that's that's that's absolutely amazing. And I commend you on the work that you're doing on helping people with this because it is a big thing, especially in this world, especially with how connected we are and how much we see. Um, you know, because you know, back in the 90s and the 80s, before the internet and stuff, people would talk behind your back and you wouldn't find out because you didn't go to that neighborhood. And now something happens. Did you hear that so and so? And immediately you're finding out you're being bombarded. And so it can be really, really hard. Like the betrayals are happening over like so fast. Um, and it really does just change you.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Um the good news is you you can heal from all of it, but it does. And there's, you know, with the when when someone's betrayed, also, there's so much, so much struggling and suffering in silence uh because they're embarrassed, they're humiliated, they're ashamed, as if it had anything to do with them. It didn't. Uh, and they're also very often protecting the betrayer

Coaching Applications And Everyday Betrayals

SPEAKER_01 18:42

at their own expense. You know, that person was well loved and respected in the community or whatever. And so they're doing all they can to just handle this on their own, as if their life just didn't completely implode, you know, while they're taking care of all their other responsibilities. And um, not only do people who do that not heal, they have the most uh physical symptoms out of anybody betrayed because your broken heart can't handle that. But, you know, the healing is available to the people who are ready for it. It's, you know, it's intentional, it's deliberate, deliberate, but you create a version of you that is so healthy, so healed, so whole uh because of what you move through. And uh, I'm just on a mission to get as many coaches, healers, and practitioners to become certified in this model so that they can truly help their clients in a fraction of the time.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

That is amazing. And the the the correlation, the strong correlation um that comes with elevating your mindset and healing your body. Like they go hand in hand. As you go up one level, you know, like the other one has to match up because it it's really hard to be in this, you know, like mindset development and then everything hurts.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Um and the best coaches, you know, they have great mindset tools, but when they use their great tools, which work on so many other people, when they use it on someone who's been betrayed, it's the it's a great tool, wrong time, backfires. So then the coach looks at themselves and says, What am I doing wrong? Like, what is it about that client? Or they think the client is being resistant, or they think they're just, you know, they're sitting, they're stuck in in this victim stance because they want to be. And that when that coach understands the five stages, they realize, oh my gosh, if I just use this tool now, it's gonna move them to the next stage. You know, and and what I'm also seeing is so many coaches are getting so many more referrals now because the clients are getting the benefit of what they signed up for with that coach. Like even if it's a business coach, they sign up with a business coach for confidence, right? But if there's an unhealed betrayal at the root of it, that confidence was shattered because of that betrayal. So now, if that business coach understands those five stages and helps them, you know, move through it, the confidence skyrockets, not because they gave them some mindset tools, because they moved them through the stages.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yeah. And and this can be used for betrayals of any size. Like it could be the other day, I was thinking about something. I had a friend in elementary school, and I thought we were really good friends. And one day I was hanging upside down in the in the monkey bars, and she moved my feet and made me fall on the floor. And to this day, I was like, I don't ever know what I what I don't know what I said to her, I don't know what I did to her. But that was like a betrayal, right? And that's a small betrayal. I was like in first grade or something, but it could be as big as someone who you love gaslighting you and lying to you, and then you're like, done. And then what do you do? And so, um, no matter the size of the betrayalist size, right? Because like really it all hurts. Um just a proven system that you could go through. I think that's just absolutely genius. Now, how does my Audience stay in touch with you. They want to connect with you. They want to hear more from you. I mentioned you had some TEDx talks. So can you tell us a little bit about those and how we can read your book?

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, sure. So two TEDx talks. I can't even believe

TEDx Talks Resources And Final Tip

SPEAKER_01 22:12

it. The first one, stop sabotaging yourself. I did that six weeks after my betrayal. I have no idea how I pulled that off. I honestly have a hard time looking at it because I know what I was going through at that time. I hinted at it at my betrayal, but I wasn't ready to really come out with it yet. And the second one, do you have post-betrayal syndrome? That was one of the first times I really spoke about it. And, you know, I was like, this is too important. Just I'm a very private person. But when I saw the healing when I was working privately with people and I was moving myself through the five stages, like I was the guinea pig during the study and trying it, it was working. And I started sharing. I'm like, how do I not share this? Like this stuff works. Um, betrayal is one of the most painful of the human experiences, you know. So if if we can predictably move someone through in a fraction of the time, it's really about me getting out of the way. So that second one, uh do you have post-betrayal syndrome was really my way of saying it's time to like go big or go home. But everything is at the PBT, is in post-betrayal transformation, the pbtinstitute.com.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Awesome. Perfect. And you know what? It is it is big and it's painful and it's hurtful. And unfortunately, it's something that we all kind of have in common. Like we all do. It's happened to all of us in some way or another. Um, and so yeah, I think it's a big deal. Now, we like to sign off here with a final tip. So, what's like that big, the best tip that you have? What helps people move forward? I mean, you've already given us so much, but like the icing on top of the cake.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

You know, I would say I I find so many people really struggle with this. And so I'm gonna tell you something, and if you have to repeat it a million times, it's worth it, ready. Even though it happened to you, it's not about you. Say that as many times as you need because we used to have a program for the betrayer, and I would meet with them all the time, and one after another after another, and even in my own experience, I learned that too. It has nothing to do with the betrayed at all. It has everything to do with the betrayer, their lack, their scarcity, their unhealed trauma, their and I'm not making an excuse for any of it, but it's because of their issue, not yours. Don't assume I'm less than unworthy, undeserving, unlovable. No, has nothing to do with you.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

That is that's big, that's huge. That's that's a relief. Um, because yeah, um, you know, you're like, what why me? Is it my fault? Was I just dumb? But it happens to the best of us, you know. Um, yeah. So, like, you know, I don't know. I don't know what else to say, but that's that's really good. I love that. And so thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Debbie. This has been absolutely fantastic. Um, and like I said, the work you do is just it's so big, it's so incredible. Um, and I can't wait to see that term in the DSMB one day. Um I'm trying. Thank you so much. You'll get there. I know it takes a while, but I'm sure you will because this is just revolutionary. So thank you for joining us today. Um, and we will catch you guys next time on the next episode of Overcome Yourself. Bye.